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Thread: Haven't got a name for it yet

  1. #736
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivoryring View Post
    I thought I was going to be all smart and put a battery disconnect switch inline for my winch. Unfortunately, I didn't realize that the switch I got has 3/8 inch studs, so in a vain attempt to drill out my winch cable lug... lets just say I now need to reterminate the winch positive lead.

    Does anyone have a crimper that can properly terminate 3ga battery cable (as in - reliable enough for winch use)? Technically the stud requires 10mm hole, and the cable is listed as 25mm​2
    I solder my ends on when I have to redo them, so no need to crimp ;)
    Traction, articulation, and gearing make a good off-road rig. Just a big lift, wide mud tires, and a winch simply do not ;)

  2. #737
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    Jeep started... Yay!

    Old battery disconnected and coming out...


    New battery in - you can even see the winch positive lead hiding in shame on the side of the battery. The winch negative lead needs to be re-terminated too.
    Last edited by Ivoryring; 10-06-2017 at 08:34 PM.
    -- Tundra (yes, really my name, not my truck!) - KC1DQY

    2013 Wrangler Unlimited Sport - not stock any more - Schoolbus Yellow (er, 'Dozer')
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    Saw your new flares cruising by your house the other day. Looking right proper!
    "I hope you get hit by a goose, right in the sway bar!"
    -anon

    2015 Tacoma Access 4-banger (aka 'Scratchy') -> 255/85r16 ST Maxx, FJC wheels, 3" OME 887s/full dakar pack, CBI sliders and full skids, Pelfreybilt Hybrid bumper, ****tybilt 9.5 XRC winch, sway bar go by bye, ARB on-board air, many many zip-ties
    KC1GPY

  4. #739
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecgreen View Post
    Looking right proper!
    Does that mean "more like a Toyota every day"? Thanks!
    -- Tundra (yes, really my name, not my truck!) - KC1DQY

    2013 Wrangler Unlimited Sport - not stock any more - Schoolbus Yellow (er, 'Dozer')
    1952 M38A1 'Old Swampy' - pending reassembly into mostly stock form

  5. #740
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    So I mangled the lug on the positive lead from the winch because I tried something stupid.

    Today I put a new 3/8 lug on



    And took a look at the sorry state of the negative lug and decided that needed replacement as well.

    I'm a little annoyed - this is a premium Warn winch, I would think they would take care with the little details. Negative lead lug is not tinned so it's corroded, and there is no heat shrink so the conductors inside the cable are starting to corrode too. Also the lug looks like it's crimped with an anvil crimper instead of hex.



    -- Tundra (yes, really my name, not my truck!) - KC1DQY

    2013 Wrangler Unlimited Sport - not stock any more - Schoolbus Yellow (er, 'Dozer')
    1952 M38A1 'Old Swampy' - pending reassembly into mostly stock form

  6. #741
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    Sorry you felt that way Tundra, but it looked good to me, though it obviously looks better now, especially being new. Almost all companies try to make thing faster for production, and most try to do it as inexpensively as possible for profits. Some just have to accept different levels of quality. You sir just have the ability to make it better from improved workmanship, the time to do it, and the funds to upgrade fit & finish ;)
    Well done!
    Traction, articulation, and gearing make a good off-road rig. Just a big lift, wide mud tires, and a winch simply do not ;)

  7. #742
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    Sorry you felt that way Tundra, but it looked good to me, though it obviously looks better now, especially being new. Almost all companies try to make thing faster for production, and most try to do it as inexpensively as possible for profits. Some just have to accept different levels of quality. You sir just have the ability to make it better from improved workmanship, the time to do it, and the funds to upgrade fit & finish ;)
    Well done!
    It was only a little annoyed, not a lot.

    What I forgot to show or mention is that the original positive lead lug is tinned and heat shrink sealed. I didn't check to see if it's anvil crimped or hex crimped. Since the weakest link is what determines capability - why would they spend the time/expense to do the positive lead better than the negative lead (no matter what level of quality/fit/finish they decide makes sense for them)?

    That said, I like the way you put it - it might be a minor thing but as far as the lugs go, I've made an upgrade in fit and finish.

    And now I've got a hydraulic hex crimper for 4ga and smaller. Harbor Freight, so I get the opportunity to re-label the dies to a "more-useful-to-me" designation. :)
    -- Tundra (yes, really my name, not my truck!) - KC1DQY

    2013 Wrangler Unlimited Sport - not stock any more - Schoolbus Yellow (er, 'Dozer')
    1952 M38A1 'Old Swampy' - pending reassembly into mostly stock form

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivoryring View Post
    And now I've got a hydraulic hex crimper for 4ga and smaller. Harbor Freight, so I get the opportunity to re-label the dies to a "more-useful-to-me" designation. :)

    How do you like that hex crimper? I've been debating picking one up. I've been using an anvil crimper+solder for a long time and it seems like an easy way to upgrade to a better crimp and no solder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cda View Post
    How do you like that hex crimper? I've been debating picking one up. I've been using an anvil crimper+solder for a long time and it seems like an easy way to upgrade to a better crimp and no solder.
    Well, it crimps.

    The die markings are completely wrong. I looked at some reviews online and was aware of this already. The one marked '0 AWG' did a reasonable job of a crimp on my 4 AWG lug (when stuffed with 25mm2 wire, which isn't actually the same as 4 AWG to begin with, but I asked Warn support what they recommended for a lug and they said 4 AWG). So for me, it's for 4 AWG and smaller only. Also mentioned online - the die halves don't have anything that keeps them in alignment as they are coming together - if you know this and have a free hand you can hold one so it lines up with the other reasonably well and without a lot of risk - once the dies start to bite in, I don't see any reason they would twist out of alignment.

    If you'd like to use mine sometime before buying one, you could.

    I didn't want to solder this connection, so my alternative was to find a shop somewhere and pay 'minimum 1 hr' shop rate for 5 minutes of work, so given that alternative, I've already paid for the price of the crimper with terminating these two leads. For my level of use, it would take a lot longer to get payback for an Amphenol crimper costing around $600 or so.
    -- Tundra (yes, really my name, not my truck!) - KC1DQY

    2013 Wrangler Unlimited Sport - not stock any more - Schoolbus Yellow (er, 'Dozer')
    1952 M38A1 'Old Swampy' - pending reassembly into mostly stock form

  10. #745
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    Quote Originally Posted by cda View Post
    .... and no solder.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivoryring View Post
    ...I didn't want to solder this connection, ...
    May I please know why guys? Inquiry minds wish to know ;) Thank you.
    Traction, articulation, and gearing make a good off-road rig. Just a big lift, wide mud tires, and a winch simply do not ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    May I please know why guys? Inquiry minds wish to know ;) Thank you.
    It's really down to splitting hairs, but mechanical crimps are generally considered superior in non-data connections as their survivability in high vibration environments is significantly better than the average soldered joint.

    Solder is a great connection, but often can result in fatigue at the solder joint, especially if the solder wicks up under the insulation on half the strands for some reason, these can break due to the uneven distribution of force across the cross section of conductor. Heavy gauge terminals also increase the risk of a cold joint in the connection, especially if you're trying to heat it without melting the insulator(and are inexperienced).

    It really is splitting hairs, a properly executed solder joint is plenty strong and arguably more conductive than a mechanical joint. But I feel (along with the coast guard rulebook) that a mechanical joint made with the right tool is more durable than a solder only joint.



    American Boat & Yacht Council.

    "Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit.11.16.3.7.
    "Solderless crimp on connectors shall be attached with the type of crimping tools designed for the connector used, and that will produce a connection meeting the requirements of E-11.16.3.3. 11.16.3.8.
    Ancor has a excerpt from the ABYC section E-11 on it's website, I'd link to the ABYC E-11 but it's behind a member wall on their site.
    http://www.ancorproducts.com/en/reso...abyc-standards


    All my heavy gauge connections are crimped and pull tested. My small gauge connections are either crimped with heat shrink + adhesive marine butt connectors, or linesman's spliced and soldered with adhesive heatshrink tubing over the connection to seal and protect. Both the linesmans splice and crimped connection made properly are MUCH stronger than the wire that they are connecting.

  12. #747
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    Chris has it pretty much on.

    Not mentioned in his quotes is that a proper crimp creates an airtight bond between all the strands and the shell. My understanding is that a poor crimp is easier to spot with physical inspection than a poor solder connection.
    -- Tundra (yes, really my name, not my truck!) - KC1DQY

    2013 Wrangler Unlimited Sport - not stock any more - Schoolbus Yellow (er, 'Dozer')
    1952 M38A1 'Old Swampy' - pending reassembly into mostly stock form

  13. #748
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    Quote Originally Posted by cda View Post
    It's really down to splitting hairs, but mechanical crimps are generally considered superior in non-data connections as their survivability in high vibration environments is significantly better than the average soldered joint.
    Solder is a great connection, but often can result in fatigue at the solder joint, especially if the solder wicks up under the insulation on half the strands for some reason, these can break due to the uneven distribution of force across the cross section of conductor. Heavy gauge terminals also increase the risk of a cold joint in the connection, especially if you're trying to heat it without melting the insulator(and are inexperienced).
    It really is splitting hairs, a properly executed solder joint is plenty strong and arguably more conductive than a mechanical joint. But I feel (along with the coast guard rulebook) that a mechanical joint made with the right tool is more durable than a solder only joint.
    Ancor has a excerpt from the ABYC section E-11 on it's website, I'd link to the ABYC E-11 but it's behind a member wall on their site.
    http://www.ancorproducts.com/en/reso...abyc-standards
    All my heavy gauge connections are crimped and pull tested. My small gauge connections are either crimped with heat shrink + adhesive marine butt connectors, or linesman's spliced and soldered with adhesive heatshrink tubing over the connection to seal and protect. Both the linesmans splice and crimped connection made properly are MUCH stronger than the wire that they are connecting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivoryring View Post
    Chris has it pretty much on.
    Not mentioned in his quotes is that a proper crimp creates an airtight bond between all the strands and the shell. My understanding is that a poor crimp is easier to spot with physical inspection than a poor solder connection.
    Thanks guys. Electrical is definitely my weakest area when it comes to this stuff, and I learned and was taught by many people that solder was superior, though not solder only I guess. Plus most of the connections I or they were comparing it to was cheap splices and unsealed/unprotected crimps, so in that aspect it would be better, and what you are writing does make sense.

    The way I found and like to do larger cables, such as battery terminals, since I don't have a crimp tool made for that large of a gauge, is to put the end in the vice with the wire side pointing up, then heat the "cup" with a torch to melt in solder. Once it is almost full and still in liquid form, I shove the cable in and let it solidify. I never seen or heard of a problem with them coming out, but I don't use my wires for recovery either :p

    Anyways, sorry for the hijack Tundra, and thank you both again :)
    Traction, articulation, and gearing make a good off-road rig. Just a big lift, wide mud tires, and a winch simply do not ;)

  14. #749
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    Plus most of the connections I or they were comparing it to was cheap splices and unsealed/unprotected crimps, so in that aspect it would be better, and what you are writing does make sense.
    I've seen plenty of those - and they definitely give crimping a bad name. Phillips head screws overcranked with the wrong size driver so they are stripped will give you a bad impression of Phillips. Hex bolt heads mangled by lock jaw pliers we give you a bad impression of hex bolt heads.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    The way I found and like to do larger cables, such as battery terminals, since I don't have a crimp tool made for that large of a gauge, is to put the end in the vice with the wire side pointing up, then heat the "cup" with a torch to melt in solder. Once it is almost full and still in liquid form, I shove the cable in and let it solidify. I never seen or heard of a problem with them coming out, but I don't use my wires for recovery either :p
    My experience with soldering is on small gauge stuff (generally 12 awg and smaller) - I've soldered a lot it over the years and the number one problem I've seen is 'movement during solidification phase'. It's often difficult or a hassle to immobilize everything so there is no movement, but it really does make a huge difference in the solder joint.

    A joint that's either insufficiently heated to fully melt the solder (cold joint) or a joint where the parts move relative to each other during the time when some but not all of the solder is solid (disturbed joint) is not a good joint - this can cause cracks in the solder, higher resistance, weaker joint, and/or porous joint. When working with small wires in a splice situation, disturbed joints are more likely than cold joints unless you immobilize them. When working with one part that acts as an effective heat sink, a cold joint is likely.

    This is why the focus on wicking - a proper solder joint requires wicking - if you don't have wicking, you have a cold joint and that's somewhat akin to a bolt that's been over-tightened past the yield point - it might not fall out or wiggle, but it's failed none the less.

    I don't want to say you aren't doing it right. The method you describe seems at first glance likely to be very easy to result in either 'cold joint' or 'disturbed joint' (because you have both conditions going on - a heat sink and movement between the parts) - but it's definitely possible that my sense of this is wrong.
    -- Tundra (yes, really my name, not my truck!) - KC1DQY

    2013 Wrangler Unlimited Sport - not stock any more - Schoolbus Yellow (er, 'Dozer')
    1952 M38A1 'Old Swampy' - pending reassembly into mostly stock form

  15. #750
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    I solder my ends on when I have to redo them, so no need to crimp ;)
    I was taught by an old SCCA racer years ago to never solder on a car, the vibrations eventually break solder joints. He said to always crimp. I dunno, both ways seem to good to me but he does have a point I guess.
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    Agnes - 1995 Jeep Wrangler (YJ) - 4 cylinder 35" MTRs, 3.5" Black Diamond Suspension SUA, Ford 8.8, HPD30 w/vacuum disco w/4.88s, ARB lockers front and rear, front shackle reversal, rear revolvers, lotsa skids, Bullet Proof steer modified, Mastercraft seats with PRP 5 point harness
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